The full story and answer from the Department for Transport follows.....
Since purchasing my 8 seat (inc driver) Tourneo, I have been at a loss as to the speed limit restrictions for the vehicle and other 8/9 seat passenger carrying vehicles if used privately as a car and have checked various forums and asked a number of police officers, including traffic police officers.
The answers varied with two traffic officers both stating their life, job and reputation that the Tourneo (same for Vito?!) is classed as a minibus and based on a commerical vehicle and therefore has the following van limits:
National speed limit (car 60mph) 50mph
Dual Carriageway (car 70mph) 60mph
Motorway (car 70mph) 70mph
I aksed what legislation covered this and was told by one "it looks like a Transit van, sounds like a Transit van, behaves like a Transit van. It is a VAN" and after much pushing was told to move on.
I then refered back to the others who had said it was "a passenger carrying vehcile under 3.5t with less than 8 passenger seats, it is a CAR, taxed as such and car speed limits and legislation apply"
I then began searching forums and got into the large grey area minefield of speed limits and vehicle classifications and got more confused, so I emailed a number of government depratments for an official answer, quoting my registration plate. Five of these departments came back with "not our department, try this department" and would not forward the query, until finally I got referred to the DfT for an official response.
Here is my email edited to remove my home and vehicle details:
************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** **************************************
Please can you answer a query that confuses everyone; what are the speed limits for my vehicle? ***Registration given here***
Please write and confirm the speed limits for:
Transit Tourneo 8 seat (all seat numbers include driver)
Transit Tourneo 9 seat
Transit Minibus 8, 12, 15, 17 seat
Volkswagen Caravelle 7/8 seat
Volkswagen Shuttle (all seats)
Volkswagen Transporter
Volkswagen window van with seat conversion
Volkswagen Kombi van 5 seat
Mercedes Vito Kombi with 5 seats
Mercedes Vito Traveliner 7 seat
Ford Freda 8 seat/Mazda Bongo 8 seat (not camper version)
Peugeot Expert 8 seat
Citroen C8 8 seat
Peugeot 807 8 seat
Landrover Station Wagon 9 seat
Please clarify the reasons why, assuming private use, non-taxi or hire and reward, non-commerical use. What factors decide the limits? Body type, weight, number of seats, commercial or passenger carrying class etc/
My Tourneo is taxed as a diesel car, has 8 seats like many of the above, is classed as an M1 passenger carrying vehicle, with class IV MOT, weight under 2 tonnes and is used privately as our family car. Please write in detail to list the above vehicles and explanations for the limits in
reference to body type, car, commercial vehicle, passenger carrying vehicle class, taxi etc.
Since buying the vehicle, I have asked several police officers the limits and some say 60/70/70, some say 50/60/70 and none of them knew what to say about the others and reasons why. This is a grey area and is the matter of hot debate on many forums and needs clearing up. To add to the confusion, I understand that VW register some vehicles as N1 and some as M1, but even they change the rules as the same vehicle differs in different years of manufacture. I will quote the letter on various forums to give the correct info-it seems daft that an 8 seat Tourneo and an 8 seat Bongo (not the camper version and based on a van) may differ in limits and likewise an 8 seat conversion of a VW Transporter may differ to a 8 seat factory built VW Caravelle-which are both the same vehicle with trim differences. Thanks in advance.
************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** *************************************
The official response (personal and vehicle details removed):
************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** *************************************
Department for Transport
Great Minster House
33 Horseferry Road
London
SW1P 4DR
Tel: 0300 330 3000
Fax: 020 7944 9643
Web Site: http://www.dft.gov.uk
Our Ref:
Your Ref:
26 January 2012
Dear Mr,
Vehicle Speed Limits
Thank you for your email of 20 January to the Department for Transport about vehicle speeds. This has been sent to me for reply.
Please note that I am unable to give legal advice or comment on individual vehicle models. However I am able to point you to the relevant legislation.
The national speed limits for different categories of road vehicle depend on how the vehicle is configured for use on the road. That generally means whether the vehicle is designed primarily for the carriage of passengers or goods, even though it may also carry a load.
A passenger vehicle is defined in Regulation 3 of The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 as a vehicle constructed solely for the carriage of passengers and their effects: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/made
Where there are windows, seats and seat belts behind the drivers seat our understanding is that the enforcement authorities will assume that the vehicle is primarily used for carrying passengers rather than goods. A passenger vehicle with no more than 8 passenger seats can travel at the same speed as a car.
There is no official list of vehicles maintained by the Department. You may want to check the details in the vehicle handbook or with the manufacture. You may also find the following pages of Directgov helpful: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTr ... /DG_178867 as well as http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/Dr ... DG_4022708 and the links at the bottom of that page.
I am sorry that I cannot send a more definitive response
Yours sincerely,
Katherine Lancaster
************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** **************************************
My interpretation of the matter after referring to the letter and links in it, is:
1/A minibus is classed as a vehicle with more than 8 passenger seats
2/ Vehicle weight is under 3.5t and is as stated above, classed as a car, so normal 60/70/70mph limits apply
3/ Vehicles are registered with the class M or N on the V5C- M being passenger carrying, N being commercial vehicle and these dictate the limit for Kombis or converted vehicles which have not been re-registered-it would therefore be possible to drive a VW Transporter fully converted as a people carrier looking exactly the same as a Caravelle, yet if the V5C says N, it is still 50/60/70. However the comment is made in the letter that if the vehicle appears to be for passenger carrying and has seats behind the driver with seatbelts it is classed as a passenger carrying vehicle-which would contradict the above.
I had hoped for a definitive list as it did seem that before this correspondence, many forums believed 8 seat (inc driver) Tourneos to have car limits and 9 seat (inc driver) to have van limits. My point was to highlight the unfairness of a Tourneo perhaps being classed as 50/60/70mph when a Mazda Bongo which is based on a van and has 8 seats (not the full camper version which is classed as a motorhome where I believe car limits apply) being quoted as 60/70/70mph.
No definitive list, but an official letter to show to the traffic police who, may in fact be mistaken when they stop you.
I think the V5C should have a section showing the speed limits applying to that particular vehicle, it would make life much easier.
My experience of the police and government throughout this charade has not been good, as everyone in the government departments until the last letter just shrugged and said they could not answer and would not forward the matter to the right department, and the police completely contradicted each other and got somewhat unfriendly when asked how they got their answer.
All comments and experiences, please post
For legal reasons, please note that I do not accept any liability for this post, it contains information which may be disputed in a court of law and readers are reminded that they need to make their own enquiries with respect to vehicles they drive.
Since purchasing my 8 seat (inc driver) Tourneo, I have been at a loss as to the speed limit restrictions for the vehicle and other 8/9 seat passenger carrying vehicles if used privately as a car and have checked various forums and asked a number of police officers, including traffic police officers.
The answers varied with two traffic officers both stating their life, job and reputation that the Tourneo (same for Vito?!) is classed as a minibus and based on a commerical vehicle and therefore has the following van limits:
National speed limit (car 60mph) 50mph
Dual Carriageway (car 70mph) 60mph
Motorway (car 70mph) 70mph
I aksed what legislation covered this and was told by one "it looks like a Transit van, sounds like a Transit van, behaves like a Transit van. It is a VAN" and after much pushing was told to move on.
I then refered back to the others who had said it was "a passenger carrying vehcile under 3.5t with less than 8 passenger seats, it is a CAR, taxed as such and car speed limits and legislation apply"
I then began searching forums and got into the large grey area minefield of speed limits and vehicle classifications and got more confused, so I emailed a number of government depratments for an official answer, quoting my registration plate. Five of these departments came back with "not our department, try this department" and would not forward the query, until finally I got referred to the DfT for an official response.
Here is my email edited to remove my home and vehicle details:
************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** **************************************
Please can you answer a query that confuses everyone; what are the speed limits for my vehicle? ***Registration given here***
Please write and confirm the speed limits for:
Transit Tourneo 8 seat (all seat numbers include driver)
Transit Tourneo 9 seat
Transit Minibus 8, 12, 15, 17 seat
Volkswagen Caravelle 7/8 seat
Volkswagen Shuttle (all seats)
Volkswagen Transporter
Volkswagen window van with seat conversion
Volkswagen Kombi van 5 seat
Mercedes Vito Kombi with 5 seats
Mercedes Vito Traveliner 7 seat
Ford Freda 8 seat/Mazda Bongo 8 seat (not camper version)
Peugeot Expert 8 seat
Citroen C8 8 seat
Peugeot 807 8 seat
Landrover Station Wagon 9 seat
Please clarify the reasons why, assuming private use, non-taxi or hire and reward, non-commerical use. What factors decide the limits? Body type, weight, number of seats, commercial or passenger carrying class etc/
My Tourneo is taxed as a diesel car, has 8 seats like many of the above, is classed as an M1 passenger carrying vehicle, with class IV MOT, weight under 2 tonnes and is used privately as our family car. Please write in detail to list the above vehicles and explanations for the limits in
reference to body type, car, commercial vehicle, passenger carrying vehicle class, taxi etc.
Since buying the vehicle, I have asked several police officers the limits and some say 60/70/70, some say 50/60/70 and none of them knew what to say about the others and reasons why. This is a grey area and is the matter of hot debate on many forums and needs clearing up. To add to the confusion, I understand that VW register some vehicles as N1 and some as M1, but even they change the rules as the same vehicle differs in different years of manufacture. I will quote the letter on various forums to give the correct info-it seems daft that an 8 seat Tourneo and an 8 seat Bongo (not the camper version and based on a van) may differ in limits and likewise an 8 seat conversion of a VW Transporter may differ to a 8 seat factory built VW Caravelle-which are both the same vehicle with trim differences. Thanks in advance.
************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** *************************************
The official response (personal and vehicle details removed):
************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** *************************************
Department for Transport
Great Minster House
33 Horseferry Road
London
SW1P 4DR
Tel: 0300 330 3000
Fax: 020 7944 9643
Web Site: http://www.dft.gov.uk
Our Ref:
Your Ref:
26 January 2012
Dear Mr,
Vehicle Speed Limits
Thank you for your email of 20 January to the Department for Transport about vehicle speeds. This has been sent to me for reply.
Please note that I am unable to give legal advice or comment on individual vehicle models. However I am able to point you to the relevant legislation.
The national speed limits for different categories of road vehicle depend on how the vehicle is configured for use on the road. That generally means whether the vehicle is designed primarily for the carriage of passengers or goods, even though it may also carry a load.
A passenger vehicle is defined in Regulation 3 of The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 as a vehicle constructed solely for the carriage of passengers and their effects: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/made
Where there are windows, seats and seat belts behind the drivers seat our understanding is that the enforcement authorities will assume that the vehicle is primarily used for carrying passengers rather than goods. A passenger vehicle with no more than 8 passenger seats can travel at the same speed as a car.
There is no official list of vehicles maintained by the Department. You may want to check the details in the vehicle handbook or with the manufacture. You may also find the following pages of Directgov helpful: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTr ... /DG_178867 as well as http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/Dr ... DG_4022708 and the links at the bottom of that page.
I am sorry that I cannot send a more definitive response
Yours sincerely,
Katherine Lancaster
************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** **************************************
My interpretation of the matter after referring to the letter and links in it, is:
1/A minibus is classed as a vehicle with more than 8 passenger seats
2/ Vehicle weight is under 3.5t and is as stated above, classed as a car, so normal 60/70/70mph limits apply
3/ Vehicles are registered with the class M or N on the V5C- M being passenger carrying, N being commercial vehicle and these dictate the limit for Kombis or converted vehicles which have not been re-registered-it would therefore be possible to drive a VW Transporter fully converted as a people carrier looking exactly the same as a Caravelle, yet if the V5C says N, it is still 50/60/70. However the comment is made in the letter that if the vehicle appears to be for passenger carrying and has seats behind the driver with seatbelts it is classed as a passenger carrying vehicle-which would contradict the above.
I had hoped for a definitive list as it did seem that before this correspondence, many forums believed 8 seat (inc driver) Tourneos to have car limits and 9 seat (inc driver) to have van limits. My point was to highlight the unfairness of a Tourneo perhaps being classed as 50/60/70mph when a Mazda Bongo which is based on a van and has 8 seats (not the full camper version which is classed as a motorhome where I believe car limits apply) being quoted as 60/70/70mph.
No definitive list, but an official letter to show to the traffic police who, may in fact be mistaken when they stop you.
I think the V5C should have a section showing the speed limits applying to that particular vehicle, it would make life much easier.
My experience of the police and government throughout this charade has not been good, as everyone in the government departments until the last letter just shrugged and said they could not answer and would not forward the matter to the right department, and the police completely contradicted each other and got somewhat unfriendly when asked how they got their answer.
All comments and experiences, please post
For legal reasons, please note that I do not accept any liability for this post, it contains information which may be disputed in a court of law and readers are reminded that they need to make their own enquiries with respect to vehicles they drive.